Can you explain specifically why you consider yourself an "anti-zionist"? It wasn't clear to me in the essay. Does this mean you don't believe Israel has the right to exist? My understanding of Zionism was the support of Israel's right to exist as a jewish state. Thank you.
Yes Israel has a right to exist. But of course. Zionism is a 150 year old political movement born in Europe that argues there should be a national homeland for Jews and that homeland wound up being Palestine. I am opposed to ANY AND ALL theocratic states, be they Iran or Israel. Jews leaving Europe under the Nazis had few choices as most other countries turned them away. Under Zionist leadership and British colonialism (who then controlled Palestine, a couple million Jews resettled in Paalestine during WWII.. Zionist organizations led the war against the Brits and won in 1948. But they also dispossed about 750k Palestinians of their villages and towns. Britain had initially partioned Palestine sort of equally (favoring the Jews a bit) so both peoples could co-exist in the same place. But the Israeli Zionist forces took much more land than they were supposed to. And of course in the 1967 war they took even more land which they continue to occupy creating another 2 million stateless Pals on the West Bank. So, no, I do not believe that any people has a "right" to take the land of others in the name of religion. The Palestinians at the time of the Nakba (the 1947-48 expulsion of Palestinians) had a pretty miserable leadership and they made their own share of errors which to some degree has persisted. But I ask you why in any discussion of the conflict there's always the question" Doesnt Israel have the right to exist? But the question of why the Palestinians dont have the same right is rarely if ever asked.? And when it is asked, the answer is usually a flipped off "well they have turned down every chance for a two state settlement." That's about 25% true at best. The reality is that for the last decade the Israeli leadership has completely abandoned any goal of creating a second state. This has been the stated policy of Netanyahu. At the end of the day, this conflict continues because one people dispossessed and occupied the original inhabitants. And one of the great sticking points in failed negotiations of past decades was the steadfast Israeli position of NOT allowing any Pals who left in 48 or after the right to return to their homes in what is now Israel, Instead they are relegated to squalid refugee camps outside of Israeli borders but still subject to Israeli military attack.. This and for mnay other reasons I am not now, never have been and never will be a Zionist. I am also an athetist so any mumbo jumbo about Israel being the "biblical" home of the Jewish people and they therefore have a right to currently occupty every square inch of it is an argument I completely reject.
I am also an atheist so my allegiance to Israel has nothing to do with religious beliefs. But I am a Jew and I know the history of my people; and I believe 100% that without a state that is Jewish, the jewish people will never be safe or continue as a people. Israel has more problems, many created by herself, than i can name, yet I will always support her right to exist as a jewish state bcs I know what the alternative is. We've see that throughout history and we are seeing it today with the pro-Hamas rallies all over the globe (yes, pro-Hamas). Hamas wants Israel destroyed and there are people all over the world who support this; silly students who don a kiffeyeh (spelling?) and think they are revolutionaries. Disgusting, vile professors who say that watching the paragliders on Oct 7th was "exhilarating". So many who profess to support the palestinians in this war are using Israel's atrocities to slam jews everywhere; it's blatant antisemitism. And this is why Israel needs to exist (not the settlements, not netanyahu, not the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza). Did Israel form thru colonialist means? Yes. Have nations all over the world formed through violence and imperialism? Yes. Is this morally sound. No. But it is what it is and Israel isn't going anywhere so the Arab nations and South Africa and Iran and .... need to accept that and work for a solution which works for both the Israelis and the Palestinians. No one is asking new yorkers to give the land back to the Mohawk/Onondaga/Seneca/Tuscarora Indians; land that was taken from them thru violence and deception. But Israel should give its land back? Much of which was won in wars that the Arab nations started (thru military actions or aggression). Arab nations who have used the Palestinian people for their own nefarious purposes, while caring little about the well-being of these people. I'm tired of the hypocrisy.
Agree almost entirely and want to share this excellent argument, but first two egregious typos that change the intended meaning should be corrected ASAP.
1) "UC Berkeley Law School dead Erwin Chemerinsky" should be "Dean"
2)"This is a one sided war of collective punishment by a greatly overpowered Palestinian population" should read "collective punishment OF...".
One-sided - really ????- Hamas started this on Oct 7th knowing what would follow - did they try to save their citizens? Hell no - they embedded themselves…did they return the hostages? Hell no. Do I want a ceasefire - yes, I want Hamas to return every single hostage!!! Do I think they will - hell no- they want to martyr their people so they can blame Israel - just like surrounding the surrounding Arab nations who are doing little to help!!!!
We simply disagree. Your characterization of bith sides is quite distant from the reality i percieve. Sorry. Tnx fir such s thoughtful reponse but it dies not jibe w mine.
I'm excited to see these student protests; students should take up causes, that's part of the educational experience. I certainly did when i was younger; i was much more radical in my younger days. My problem with these protests is that it seems there is so much hatred against Jews (from the river to the sea is incredibly violent, for example), nazi swastikas plastered on the campuses, the tearing down of photos of the hostages, etc. I don't remember any kind of hatred imbued in the protests i was involved in during college. I remember a lot of guitar playing and smoking dope and hippie clothes. And the number of university professors who are saying outrageous things, supporting Hamas. Know wonder the students are so biased and confused.
Marc - I have so many issues with your “anti-Zionist” diatribe…firstly, please define “anti-Zionist”. I despise Netanyahu and I am highly critical of Israel’s policy - ideally I’d like a two-state solution, but I don’t believe the Palestinians want peace - they breed hate, in their children’s curriculum-spitting on Murdered Israelis dragged through the streets of Gaza - celebrating in a Europe at the slaughtering of Jews! I
Mourn the loss of all innocent lives - apparently Hamas doesn’t ,not once in your article did you mention the slaughtered Israelis or the hostages. For some reason these college kids ( I’m a UC Berkeley grad) are more lemmings than real
Protesters. Half, if not more , have no knowledge of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, couldn’t pick iout Gaza or Israel on a map, and don’t know what river or sea is referenced in their little mantra “from the river to the sea”. I am so sick of the perennial victimhood of the Palestinians (hey, you can cance me if you wish) - war is war - it’s ugly - and Hamas knew what it was instigating with its repugnant behavior on Oct 7th. They use their citizens as shields, they care nothing for their people - they spend millions on weaponry and tunnels instead of improving Gaza infrastructure- their idea of cease fires is bullshit - these college kids should be chanting free the hostages - but no - because antisemitism and division is at the heart of this protesting - I have no doubt Russia and Iran timed this to harm Biden - Arab nations love to blame Israel because it deflects from their own corrupt regimes and human rights violations - Palestinians are perpetual victims - they bathe in victimhood - throughout history Jews have been displaced - in Germany thru lost their homes - they built homes elsewhere and contributed to society - they didn’t think the best way to move forward was to slaughter Germans! I think Golda Meier was right when she said there will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Jews.
Have you noticed that all the tents at Columbia look exactly the same - these protests are being funded! Follow the money and ask why with all the other fighting and regional disputes and dead civilians - these college protesters aren’t marching about that - could it be because they don’t involve Jews??? I’m a proud Jew, I pray for peace and the return of the hostages and a ceasefire but Israel is under constant bombardment from many Iranian proxies and she has a right to defend herself .
Wendy. I understand your arguments. I am simply on the other side of the river. I am a secular, atheist Jew with no connection to Israel or to Zionist organizations which I rejected when I was 12 years old/. One thing I HAVE to say, though.... I have tons of Jewish friends and I find among them they consider ISRAEL to be the perpetual victim. Oy, the whole world is against us. Actually the whole world including the US and the SSR were initially avid supporters of the state of Israel.The bloom came off the rose when Israel decided it was going to continue its expansion (1967 forward). In the meantime, it is the Palestinians who have no homeland, have only secondary rights for those who live IN iIsrael (about 2m) and another 2m who continue to live under the Israeli military boot on the West Bank. It was also the Israelis who initially supported Hamas to undercut the PA. The secular PA was for a two state solution and Israel was not. That's why Israeli leaders built up Hamas originally and abandonded it to a Hamas dictatorship in Gaza thinking its Islamic tilt would split the Palestinians (which it did) and distract them in their fight for equality... which it did not.
wendy. I am offended by your accusation that I did not denounce Hamas. Ive been writing for 50 years and you can Google search to your heart's content. If you can find one single instance, anywhere, any publcation, any year, where I punted on Hamas, I will send you a cashier's check for $5000.00 Did YOu really read this post you are responding to? Did you miss this following paragraph? DO you think it shows sympathy for Hamas? I will accept your apoogy after YOU READ WHAT I ACTUALLY WROTE WHICH SEEMS TO HAVE WHOOSHED RIGHT OVER TOUR HEAD: HERE IT IS -->" Like anybody else, I am appalled by the few (and I believe they are only a few) who are voicing affirmative support for Hamas as if they were romantic and heroic freedom fighters. In reality, they are an obscurantist, misogynist, religious fundamentalist force who think it’s just fine to murder and kidnap civilians (“Zionists”) and launch barrages of untargeted rockets into civilian population areas. If you like the Mullahs of Iran, hell, you will plain love Hamas as they are even a more pure incarnation of Islamo-fascism and they have done a bang-up job of imposing a highly repressive one-party dictatorship when they controlled Gaza (and were encouraged to do so by succeeding Israeli administrations)." TRY TO EXERCISE MORE CAUTION IN MAKING FALSE ACCUSATIONS. I fact, if I left out anything strategic in the original post it's the fact that this conflict stems directly from the ongoing, illegal and universally condemned OCCUPATION of Palestinian lands by Israel.. Is that something u support????
Marc - I did not mean to imply that you in any way support Hamas or have not denounced them, just that in this particular article I did not see any mention of the Israeli hostages or the massacre of Oct 7th in this particular article. Please correct me if you indeed cited either.
i like much of what you wrote and agree that many of the palestinians have been indoctrinated by their leaders into hating jews, all jews, not just those that who blatantly violate palestinian rights. i love that statement from Golda that there will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Jews. That could be said for so many others; much of the world seems to hate Jewish people, that hasn't changed. and probably never will. Netanyahu and his cronies certainly aren't helping that fact.
I assure you as a Jew myself that anti-arab racism is a given among my fellow Jews. If you think Jews or in this case, Israelis, who have compared them to cockroaches dont also hate Palestinians, then you are kidding yourself.
There is hatred on both sides. Deep-seated hatred. But not all Jews despise Palestinians, not all Israelis hate Palestinians and not all Arabs and Palestinians hate Israelis or Jews. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise. There are many groups in Israel, today, who stand by their Palestinian neighbors, helping them maintain their land and their safety (esp against the right-wing settlers). There are also Palestinian groups working for a peaceful "solution" (not a "final" solution like Hamas). There is racism and hatred on both sides.
Can you explain specifically why you consider yourself an "anti-zionist"? It wasn't clear to me in the essay. Does this mean you don't believe Israel has the right to exist? My understanding of Zionism was the support of Israel's right to exist as a jewish state. Thank you.
Yes Israel has a right to exist. But of course. Zionism is a 150 year old political movement born in Europe that argues there should be a national homeland for Jews and that homeland wound up being Palestine. I am opposed to ANY AND ALL theocratic states, be they Iran or Israel. Jews leaving Europe under the Nazis had few choices as most other countries turned them away. Under Zionist leadership and British colonialism (who then controlled Palestine, a couple million Jews resettled in Paalestine during WWII.. Zionist organizations led the war against the Brits and won in 1948. But they also dispossed about 750k Palestinians of their villages and towns. Britain had initially partioned Palestine sort of equally (favoring the Jews a bit) so both peoples could co-exist in the same place. But the Israeli Zionist forces took much more land than they were supposed to. And of course in the 1967 war they took even more land which they continue to occupy creating another 2 million stateless Pals on the West Bank. So, no, I do not believe that any people has a "right" to take the land of others in the name of religion. The Palestinians at the time of the Nakba (the 1947-48 expulsion of Palestinians) had a pretty miserable leadership and they made their own share of errors which to some degree has persisted. But I ask you why in any discussion of the conflict there's always the question" Doesnt Israel have the right to exist? But the question of why the Palestinians dont have the same right is rarely if ever asked.? And when it is asked, the answer is usually a flipped off "well they have turned down every chance for a two state settlement." That's about 25% true at best. The reality is that for the last decade the Israeli leadership has completely abandoned any goal of creating a second state. This has been the stated policy of Netanyahu. At the end of the day, this conflict continues because one people dispossessed and occupied the original inhabitants. And one of the great sticking points in failed negotiations of past decades was the steadfast Israeli position of NOT allowing any Pals who left in 48 or after the right to return to their homes in what is now Israel, Instead they are relegated to squalid refugee camps outside of Israeli borders but still subject to Israeli military attack.. This and for mnay other reasons I am not now, never have been and never will be a Zionist. I am also an athetist so any mumbo jumbo about Israel being the "biblical" home of the Jewish people and they therefore have a right to currently occupty every square inch of it is an argument I completely reject.
I am also an atheist so my allegiance to Israel has nothing to do with religious beliefs. But I am a Jew and I know the history of my people; and I believe 100% that without a state that is Jewish, the jewish people will never be safe or continue as a people. Israel has more problems, many created by herself, than i can name, yet I will always support her right to exist as a jewish state bcs I know what the alternative is. We've see that throughout history and we are seeing it today with the pro-Hamas rallies all over the globe (yes, pro-Hamas). Hamas wants Israel destroyed and there are people all over the world who support this; silly students who don a kiffeyeh (spelling?) and think they are revolutionaries. Disgusting, vile professors who say that watching the paragliders on Oct 7th was "exhilarating". So many who profess to support the palestinians in this war are using Israel's atrocities to slam jews everywhere; it's blatant antisemitism. And this is why Israel needs to exist (not the settlements, not netanyahu, not the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza). Did Israel form thru colonialist means? Yes. Have nations all over the world formed through violence and imperialism? Yes. Is this morally sound. No. But it is what it is and Israel isn't going anywhere so the Arab nations and South Africa and Iran and .... need to accept that and work for a solution which works for both the Israelis and the Palestinians. No one is asking new yorkers to give the land back to the Mohawk/Onondaga/Seneca/Tuscarora Indians; land that was taken from them thru violence and deception. But Israel should give its land back? Much of which was won in wars that the Arab nations started (thru military actions or aggression). Arab nations who have used the Palestinian people for their own nefarious purposes, while caring little about the well-being of these people. I'm tired of the hypocrisy.
Well stated! The Yom Kippur war was not started by Israel!!!
Agree almost entirely and want to share this excellent argument, but first two egregious typos that change the intended meaning should be corrected ASAP.
1) "UC Berkeley Law School dead Erwin Chemerinsky" should be "Dean"
2)"This is a one sided war of collective punishment by a greatly overpowered Palestinian population" should read "collective punishment OF...".
Fat fingers. Failing eyesight!! :)
One-sided - really ????- Hamas started this on Oct 7th knowing what would follow - did they try to save their citizens? Hell no - they embedded themselves…did they return the hostages? Hell no. Do I want a ceasefire - yes, I want Hamas to return every single hostage!!! Do I think they will - hell no- they want to martyr their people so they can blame Israel - just like surrounding the surrounding Arab nations who are doing little to help!!!!
We simply disagree. Your characterization of bith sides is quite distant from the reality i percieve. Sorry. Tnx fir such s thoughtful reponse but it dies not jibe w mine.
I don't see huge differences in Wendy's comments and your own. Can you be more specific? Thanks.
I'm excited to see these student protests; students should take up causes, that's part of the educational experience. I certainly did when i was younger; i was much more radical in my younger days. My problem with these protests is that it seems there is so much hatred against Jews (from the river to the sea is incredibly violent, for example), nazi swastikas plastered on the campuses, the tearing down of photos of the hostages, etc. I don't remember any kind of hatred imbued in the protests i was involved in during college. I remember a lot of guitar playing and smoking dope and hippie clothes. And the number of university professors who are saying outrageous things, supporting Hamas. Know wonder the students are so biased and confused.
Marc - I have so many issues with your “anti-Zionist” diatribe…firstly, please define “anti-Zionist”. I despise Netanyahu and I am highly critical of Israel’s policy - ideally I’d like a two-state solution, but I don’t believe the Palestinians want peace - they breed hate, in their children’s curriculum-spitting on Murdered Israelis dragged through the streets of Gaza - celebrating in a Europe at the slaughtering of Jews! I
Mourn the loss of all innocent lives - apparently Hamas doesn’t ,not once in your article did you mention the slaughtered Israelis or the hostages. For some reason these college kids ( I’m a UC Berkeley grad) are more lemmings than real
Protesters. Half, if not more , have no knowledge of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, couldn’t pick iout Gaza or Israel on a map, and don’t know what river or sea is referenced in their little mantra “from the river to the sea”. I am so sick of the perennial victimhood of the Palestinians (hey, you can cance me if you wish) - war is war - it’s ugly - and Hamas knew what it was instigating with its repugnant behavior on Oct 7th. They use their citizens as shields, they care nothing for their people - they spend millions on weaponry and tunnels instead of improving Gaza infrastructure- their idea of cease fires is bullshit - these college kids should be chanting free the hostages - but no - because antisemitism and division is at the heart of this protesting - I have no doubt Russia and Iran timed this to harm Biden - Arab nations love to blame Israel because it deflects from their own corrupt regimes and human rights violations - Palestinians are perpetual victims - they bathe in victimhood - throughout history Jews have been displaced - in Germany thru lost their homes - they built homes elsewhere and contributed to society - they didn’t think the best way to move forward was to slaughter Germans! I think Golda Meier was right when she said there will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Jews.
Have you noticed that all the tents at Columbia look exactly the same - these protests are being funded! Follow the money and ask why with all the other fighting and regional disputes and dead civilians - these college protesters aren’t marching about that - could it be because they don’t involve Jews??? I’m a proud Jew, I pray for peace and the return of the hostages and a ceasefire but Israel is under constant bombardment from many Iranian proxies and she has a right to defend herself .
Wendy. I understand your arguments. I am simply on the other side of the river. I am a secular, atheist Jew with no connection to Israel or to Zionist organizations which I rejected when I was 12 years old/. One thing I HAVE to say, though.... I have tons of Jewish friends and I find among them they consider ISRAEL to be the perpetual victim. Oy, the whole world is against us. Actually the whole world including the US and the SSR were initially avid supporters of the state of Israel.The bloom came off the rose when Israel decided it was going to continue its expansion (1967 forward). In the meantime, it is the Palestinians who have no homeland, have only secondary rights for those who live IN iIsrael (about 2m) and another 2m who continue to live under the Israeli military boot on the West Bank. It was also the Israelis who initially supported Hamas to undercut the PA. The secular PA was for a two state solution and Israel was not. That's why Israeli leaders built up Hamas originally and abandonded it to a Hamas dictatorship in Gaza thinking its Islamic tilt would split the Palestinians (which it did) and distract them in their fight for equality... which it did not.
wendy. I am offended by your accusation that I did not denounce Hamas. Ive been writing for 50 years and you can Google search to your heart's content. If you can find one single instance, anywhere, any publcation, any year, where I punted on Hamas, I will send you a cashier's check for $5000.00 Did YOu really read this post you are responding to? Did you miss this following paragraph? DO you think it shows sympathy for Hamas? I will accept your apoogy after YOU READ WHAT I ACTUALLY WROTE WHICH SEEMS TO HAVE WHOOSHED RIGHT OVER TOUR HEAD: HERE IT IS -->" Like anybody else, I am appalled by the few (and I believe they are only a few) who are voicing affirmative support for Hamas as if they were romantic and heroic freedom fighters. In reality, they are an obscurantist, misogynist, religious fundamentalist force who think it’s just fine to murder and kidnap civilians (“Zionists”) and launch barrages of untargeted rockets into civilian population areas. If you like the Mullahs of Iran, hell, you will plain love Hamas as they are even a more pure incarnation of Islamo-fascism and they have done a bang-up job of imposing a highly repressive one-party dictatorship when they controlled Gaza (and were encouraged to do so by succeeding Israeli administrations)." TRY TO EXERCISE MORE CAUTION IN MAKING FALSE ACCUSATIONS. I fact, if I left out anything strategic in the original post it's the fact that this conflict stems directly from the ongoing, illegal and universally condemned OCCUPATION of Palestinian lands by Israel.. Is that something u support????
Marc - I did not mean to imply that you in any way support Hamas or have not denounced them, just that in this particular article I did not see any mention of the Israeli hostages or the massacre of Oct 7th in this particular article. Please correct me if you indeed cited either.
Excuse typos - my texting on iPhone sucks!
i like much of what you wrote and agree that many of the palestinians have been indoctrinated by their leaders into hating jews, all jews, not just those that who blatantly violate palestinian rights. i love that statement from Golda that there will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate Jews. That could be said for so many others; much of the world seems to hate Jewish people, that hasn't changed. and probably never will. Netanyahu and his cronies certainly aren't helping that fact.
I assure you as a Jew myself that anti-arab racism is a given among my fellow Jews. If you think Jews or in this case, Israelis, who have compared them to cockroaches dont also hate Palestinians, then you are kidding yourself.
There is hatred on both sides. Deep-seated hatred. But not all Jews despise Palestinians, not all Israelis hate Palestinians and not all Arabs and Palestinians hate Israelis or Jews. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise. There are many groups in Israel, today, who stand by their Palestinian neighbors, helping them maintain their land and their safety (esp against the right-wing settlers). There are also Palestinian groups working for a peaceful "solution" (not a "final" solution like Hamas). There is racism and hatred on both sides.